Sunday, January 18th, 2009 | Author: Mystical
Illogicology asked:
You pick it up, look at it and you know it was designed and created by an intelligent creator. It’s obvious, you knew as soon as you looked it.
You pick it up, look at it and you know it was designed and created by an intelligent creator. It’s obvious, you knew as soon as you looked it.
If everything else in the forest was made by an intelligent creator, why should the watch be significant in this analogy? Shouldn’t this analogy work with a complex, intelligently designed rock in place of a watch?
Why do you think it doesn’t?
or perhaps you think it does work, I’d like to hear from you aswell!
I think people are missing my point somewhat. Someone who believed in evolution wouldn’t say the watch evolved, they WOULD say the trees did. The fact that creationists use this analogy shows they make a distinction between something created and something natural and grown. And yet, they argue that the trees and rocks are as obvious as the watch. Why?
LOURDES
Category: Mystical Forest
Aaaahhaahahahha…
Good point.
Because watches are tangible.
ID has been refuted by the highest authorities in the country to not be scientific, so no, you are talking crap, sorry.
I would give the Jacob’s Rolex to my brother…
And meanwhile in the same forest a rabbit is having its head ripped off by a ravenous fox and dying a brutal and bloody death- is that evidence of natural harmony?
Yes, of course both are intelligently designed. However, the reason the watch plays a significant part in the story, is because unbelievers believe there is no creator, therefore showing them that the watch was created should prove to them that everything else must be created too. Rocks may look very basic, but in reality they are very complex too.
You know, someday no one is going to know what a “watch” is, and the question will be reworded as a “phone/multipass/internet device”
I would think that the watch was created by a man, and that the forest was made by an more intelligent creator than the man.
The true significance of the watch is that the intelligent creator created a man capable of creating things..
I don’t see your point. Are you trying to argue AGAINST Intelligent Design?
GOD bless
“Multipass”! HA-HAAA!
mtheoryrules, apparently an evolutionist, said that the watch evolved. (Of course, he misses the obvious, that such evolution required intelligent design all along the way.)
IDists posit both complexity, and specificity. A jumble of rocks on the beach is complex, but not specific. A few rocks lined up in a row is specific, but not complex. Some rocks structured into a smiley-face is fairly complex and fairly specific. Some rocks structured into the phrase, “Methinks it is like a weasel” is very complex and very specific.
The more complex-specificity, the more likely a designer was involved.
That’s the gist of Intelligent Design thinking.
A watch is a very complex, specified structure. We recognize such specific complexity as a hallmark of design.
A tree is also a very complex, specified structure. But so many of us refuse to recognize that specific complexity as a hallmark of design.
Pfft.
because- it was out of place with the natural environment and had to have the natural material of the environment modified to have this piece of equipment –in other words some things in life can,t be explained in this time of our evolution
I don’t think i really believe what i’m about to say, but it’s a thought i had about the Design Argument once.
For freewill to be possible, there has to be room for reasonable doubt so that one can choose to believe or not to believe. If God appeared to everyone one day and said “I exist”, everyone would have little choice but to be theist. In order to preserve the choice, God has created a Universe which at any level of investigation and understanding simply suggests that there is a designer but never provides any clinching proof one way or the other, so it’s always equally possible to argue convincingly that God does not exist or that God does. That’s why all things in creation are of that nature.
Heh heh, my watch now
… *sigh* Fine, “lost and found”-bin.
God made the watch: he made the molecules that make up the watch, he keeps the molecules together, he made the watchmaker, he spoon feeds the watchmaker air to keep living, he taught the watchmaker how to make the watch (like he taught the first man how to do anything), he made the environment that sustains both the watch and the watch maker, etc, etc.
Does that anwer your question? I wasn’t sure what the Q was.
an evolutionist would say “well, it must have simply evolved”…hahahhah lol.
Creation shows that there is a creator.
A watch is a device that keeps time and made by men. The universe was not made by men neither are human beings. They were created by God and one can see their intelligent design especially when you look at the DNA code for each thing.
I don’t know what you are trying to ask. Unlike the rocks, trees, grass, and living creatures, the watch is man made.
Hate to burst your analogy but some things don’t require high levels of intelligence.Such as a rock or a snowflake. Despite it’s beauty the level of intelligence in a snowflake is comparable to a repeating computer error. Other things do require high levels of intelligence. And if you had read any intelligent design material you would know this is exacly what they say. That intelligent design is detectable in some forms as well as irreducable complexity. In other words take away one piece of the structure and it faisl to function. Hard to imagine such a device being constructed by step by step gradual evolution. Edit: Intelligent design theorists don’t argue that rocks are as complex as watches or other living organisms. In fact they have devised a filter to weed out what could be caused by chance etc. Called the CSI explanatory filter by William Dembski.
Your trying to compare complexity with non. The watch is used because it has not only complexity, but evidence of being designed. The shape, material, workings, and the face all point to a designer. now if you want to compare that to a rock, let’s look at it more closely. We can see that rocks have many different shapes and sizes and are made up of different materials. The way they are formed also varies. So now we need to look at their function. Depending on the size, they give the earth stability and keep rivers in their banks. stack them high enough and they form mountains which gives us different weather by breaking up the winds.
There are many other uses and functions for rocks. And if rocks have purpose, that means they were designed. If not, one could keep a never ending line of regression as to where the material that forms them came from.
I wonder why it is that we are impressed by our own inventions, but not God’s. That’s a pity and a shame. A watch is an artefact of man’s creation.
A rock is perhaps not seemingly as magnificent nor as involved as, say, the human anatomy. God created the rock- but he also created our bodies, and how much more complex is the human body than a rock?
EDIT:
If the watch was created, why weren’t the trees? If you go back far enough into time, there had to have been a hallowed point whereby there was a first acorn.
Everything in creation comes into and vanishes out of existence- rivers, stars, mountains, et cetera.
A bench cannot assemble itself- it requires that a carpenter assemble it. By this analogy, the acorn or the first tree couldn’t have willed itself into existence- this suggests that a divine creator is behind the assembly of the tree.
Very good! I like that. Perhaps it is because we do not have eyes to see the design. Our intelligence blinds us and we see what we want and not what is. But, the watch was made by us and we can fathom it and appreciate it and given time even make our own. God is not so.
First one does not believe in evolution, it is not a belief.
It is a fact that has been empirically verified many times over.
Second the watch DID EVOLVE, from the sun dial to the water clock to the pendulum clock to the gear and spring clock to the gear and spring watch to the electric gear watch to the electric digital watch to the electric digital watch with a calculator on board.
The analogy should fail for this reason if no other.
Any one that is at all familiar with evolution knows that the complexity of multicellar organisms took billions of years to come about as life slowly but gradually became adapted to inhabit more diverse ecological niches. The reason it appears that we have just come upon “a complex machine” is because humans were not there from the beginning of evolution on earth, but the fossil records were, and they are simply not capable of telling lies or bending the truth, unlike people.
The entire “watch found in nature” line of thinking fails once you realize where the fallacy lies.
It is not true that everything has a purpose or an intelligent maker.
“Purpose” exists for things that Man made. Things not made by Man do not always have a purpose. The descriptive attribute “has an intelligent creator” is TRUE for things that Man made. There is no reason for this attribute to be TRUE for everything, though. For instance, some really complex Creation science arguments are so stupid as to immediately disprove the statement “All things have an intelligent creator.”
Here’s a question for you. We know that Mars exists. What is its purpose? We know that stars exist beyond our own sun. What are their purposes? We know that galaxies exist beyond our own Milky Way galaxy. What are their purposes?
The vaccuum of space exists. What is its purpose? The background microwave radiation detected by the COBE research exists. What is its purpose?
If you just say, “They exist because they exist” (yeah, I know, very Zen-like), you avoid questions that you cannot answer except to mouth that gem of circular logic, “God made them that way.” Whenever I see or hear that response, I go ballistic because it is a waste of brain power.